San Diego Omegawave ITU Triathlon Race Report

The San Diego Omegawave ITU was the final race of my spring season and concludes a block of challenging races during the past month.  One week after my XTERRA race in Las Vegas and three weeks after the Oceanside 70.3, I was trying to stay motivated and hoped to have residual fitness from weeks of excellent training during April.  The week leading up to the San Diego ITU included some light training and a 40mi ride on my tri bike, which hadn’t been ridden since the Oceanside race in late March.

 

Oceanside 70.3 in Kinetik Tri Suit

The weather during the morning of the race was perfect—no wind, nice rising sun, and clear.  I’m glad I had my 90mm front wheel on my bike, as the wind wouldn’t be a factor.  I got my transition area set up quickly, since our bikes were racked the day before in assigned number spaces, then went on an easy two mile jog around the venue.  I came back to my bike after the warm up to find someone moved all of my gear to the opposite side of my bike and slid my bike down the rack a few feet.  So I had to rearrange my transition area a bit and made final preparations before heading to the start.

 

I was in the 7^th wave, so I was able to get a good warm up in the 60 degree water before lining up for a beach start.  There was little drama during the swim, with the exception of another swimmer in my wave who was swimming aside me at the exact pace and cadence.  At some points, our stroke rate was exactly the same while we were inches from each other so it felt like a three armed swim.  I exited the water at 24:35, which is one of my best 1500m times.  But I didn’t feel like I had a good swim and knew that I lost a lot of time mismanaging swimmer traffic.

 

The transition went smoothly and I was on the road fairly quickly.  I passed a friend just out of transition area who I knew could beat me on the run.  I tried for the duration of the ride to get some distance between us.  I saw the aftermath of two bike accidents along the course, perhaps a result of a crowded course with a lot of turns.  The bike course included eleven 180deg turns, several 90deg turns, and four “No Passing” zones which totaled about a mile of no passing.  The start of the zones was clearly marked, but there was no end of the zone marked; I assumed they ended at one of the 180deg turns.   I didn’t expect these no passing zones, although I expected the stop & go of the turns.  There was a lot of slow traffic in the no passing zones, as some slower riders couldn’t be passed.  I didn’t want to pass because of the possibility of a penalty.  So the bike course was very “choppy” and it was difficult to get into a rhythm for a long time.  Despite the stop & go, I managed a 23.9mph pace and felt okay on the bike, although I had building concern about a tightening hip flexor. 

 

Off the bike, I got through transition smoothly and tried to get a good rhythm started on the run.  At the first mile water station (which was on the right), I was lining up to get a quick gulp of water.  A woman who was running a lot slower ahead of me on my left, moved in front of me to get a drink so I instinctively put my hand up to prevent us from tangling our feet as I ran into her.  My pace was close to 6:00 and hers was probably 10:00, so there was some fair closing speed—I’m certain she didn’t see me since I was approaching her from her back right side.  She got her water and splashed it on me, saying “don’t push me @#$%”!  So I missed that water station, but was cooled by a splash of water on the back nonetheless.  I turned and said “sorry”.  I’m pretty sure she didn’t realize what happened so I unsuccessfully tried to find her after the race to explain.  I completed the two lap run relatively smoothly and noticed my friend approaching at mile 5.  He was running real well and passed me with about a half mile to the finish.  My pace on the run was 6:04, which was about what I expected and much better than my run on the same course last year.

 

There were some FAST athletes in that race—my age group in particular.  There were some incredible times from the 40-44 men.  I placed 29/667 for all men, but 7^th in my age group.  Compared to last year at the same race, I placed 49^th overall and 5^th in my age group.

 

It was nice racing in San Diego with a great group of athletes, but I left the race venue with a different disposition than I normally have after a race.  Maybe I’m a bit worn out.  Maybe I just felt bad about that lady on the run.  I just didn’t have a good feeling after this race.  I’ll put that race behind me, get some recovery time with a month off from racing, and will start to ramp up preparation for some big XTerra races in June.

Crossing this finish line will be my focus in October

XTERRA West Championship Race Report

I have never been more nervous in the days before a race.  Three days before the race, on Wednesday afternoon, I had to abort a track workout because of severe cramping in my calves.  That evening, I could barely make it up the stairs without severe pain in my legs.  Thursday morning, before driving to Las Vegas, I got a massage to try to work the cramps out—it didn’t work.  My calves were still very sore and cramped.  I wore compression sleeves on my calves during the 5 hour drive to Las Vegas and took the day off.  The legs felt a bit better by Thursday evening, but far from 100%. 

After a warm up run on the day before the race

The day before the race, I ran the first 2mi of the run route with my kids.  This kept me slow, helped me review a technical part of the run, and gave my son a course preview of his 5k.  The legs still were sore and I didn’t have confidence that I could push them.  As soon as the run was complete, I got on my bike for a bike course preview.  I’ve ridden the course many times before in previous years, but trails change depending on rains, use, and other factors.  It changed substantially from previous years—it became exceptionally difficult in some areas and much more dangerous to ride aggressively.

 

The bike venue.  This is atop the first climb

I practiced a few downhill sections that were sketchy so I could find a decent line without crashing on race day.  I was going fairly slow, but still had difficulty feeling in control of my bike.  I completed one loop of the course (on race day, it would be two loops) and came to a decision point: ride another loop to practice some technical areas or head back to the hotel without a crash and with my legs feeling okay.  I went back to the hotel with the plan that I needed to be cautious in the technical areas and knowing that other riders on the course would probably regulate my speed somewhat.  The ride needed to be focused on the uphill portions of the course and on the flats; I was willing to sacrifice speed for safety on the downhill areas.

The afternoon before the race, I relaxed by the pool with my family and an XTerra friend.  Josiah Middaugh stopped by the pool with his family as well, so we talked about the course and some of the challenges it posed.  Josiah would win the race the following day—what a nice guy and family.  I told my friend about my cramping calves and he bet me that I’d forget about the pain during the race.  I was hoping he was right, but I was exceptionally nervous.  The course was tough and dangerous, the temperature would be about 90, and the ability of my legs to endure the run was very questionable.

Before the swim, not feeling nervous anymore.

Swim venue.  In the foreground is the buoy I never saw.

Race morning came after a good dinner and a great night of sleep.  I got my bike set up in transition at 7:00 and went back to the hotel room a short walk away to get the kids ready for the day.  The start time for my race was 10:30.  During that time, I somehow found a way to relax a bit and my nervousness went away.  My plan to deal with the leg cramps was to drink a lot of water and push a lot of Enduralites during the race.  My transition area was set up, I had a nice 1.5mi jog to loosen my legs, and I finally felt ready to race.  My race was the run—I needed to get off the bike without crashing or some mechanical issue and my legs needed to be in good shape.  I expected that my efforts on the bike would loosen my legs somewhat, but still didn’t have confidence that the calves would hold out.

Under the bridge, ready for the swim start

 

The cannon went off after we assembled under the bridge for the swim start.  There was one intermediate buoy before the turn buoy that I lost track of.  The buoys were yellow, and so were our swim caps, so they were somewhat hard to distinguish among all the yellow caps at eye level.  I felt okay during the swim, although I wasn’t on anyone’s feet.  I got a few good gulps of water, but it was an uneventful swim otherwise.  Water temperature varied between 58-62, depending upon the depth of the lake, so the swim was actually pretty comfortable. 

 

Trying to get my balance in the transition area

In the transition area, I got my wetsuit off fairly quickly and attempted to get my shoes on.  I had a real tough time keeping my balance.  I couldn’t bend over to put my shoes on without stumbing.  So frustrating!  I burned a lot of time in the transition area attempting to get my shoes on.  My feet were covered with dirt from stumbling and I had a lot of muddy sand in my shoes once they were on.  I was pretty glad to be out of that transition area—one part of my racing that I need to improve…

 

It was about 11:00 once I was on the bike, so the temperature started to pick up.  More significantly, it became exceptionally windy.  Atop the first hill we climbed, there was a very strong crosswind that blew me off a thin established path into some loose rocks.  I almost lost my balance but gave a strong few pedals to get speed and balance established.  The first few tough areas soon approached; thanks to my practice the previous day, I dialed in the appropriate gears and took the right lines in the rocky downhill portions.  The course wasn’t too crowded, although there were a few of us in a loose pack.  I passed a few groups without much drama—I was lucky enough not to be constrained on a single lane.  I drank water at preplanned locations so I’d have two hands on the bars during technical areas.  At a water bottle exchange, they gave us a water bottle with cold water—that was quite welcome.  I was still riding with a small group, maybe three other competitors, at the halfway point.  During the race, I noticed that they were a bit slower on the hills, so I wanted to get ahead during the first big hill on lap #2 so I’d have a clean trail in front of me.

 

That round part in my suspension came loose and popped out

Lap number two on the bike went well for me.  I was confident, my legs felt pretty good, and the course was somewhat tamed due to all the bike traffic.  I was also alone, except for some of the people I was passing along the way.  I had no one to compete with for good ground on the bike course, which helped me get up, down, and around efficiently.  After a rough downhill portion of the bike, something felt odd when I was in the small chain ring.  There was an odd noise and my suspension didn’t feel right—something was loose.  With all of the difficult terrain behind me, I just hoped I could get the bike to the finish.  I was concerned that my cranks would fall off and was planning on ways to cope.  The bike performed well in the big ring, so I kept it there and finished the ride without incident.  Into the transition area I was so happy to have kept on my pedals for the entire ride and was ready to see how my calves would respond.

 

Up a steep hill immediately out of transition

Right out of the transition, there was a steep hill that led to the run course.  Then there was about a 1 mile steady incline after a somewhat rugged trail portion.  I saw Josiah coming the other way in the lead with Conrad Stolz a long way back.  I gave them both a shout of encouragement.  My legs felt okay and my calves were behaving, but overall I felt dull and the air seemed hard to get.  Miles 3-4 were merciless.  The hills made your chest pound and the grade was exceptionally steep in some areas—I couldn’t even run up a few portions.  I passed a few competitors and one who was in my division just before mile 5.  After mile 5, it was pretty much all downhill, so I picked up my speed, as it didn’t bother my aching hamstrings.  I finally had a good stride, but felt that my run overall wasn’t too good.  It actually ended up being the 10^th fastest run split in the race.

 

On the final stretch home

I got to the finish having given everything I had.  What a great feeling to be completely depleted after a challenging race with so many obstacles to overcome, primarily my spastic calves.  I saw my kids cheering for me on the way in, which was a welcome sight.  After I saw my results card, I actually gagged on the water I was drinking—I got on the podium!  I was pretty proud of myself and elated to have finished in good health.  With that finish, I qualified for the World Championships and met one of my goals—to podium at a Regional or higher level race.

Lots of Enduralites resulted in salty sweat but no cramps

 

At the conclusion of the race, in true XTerra fashion, a few of us shared some beers and stories at a hotel pool.  The following day, my son had his XTerra 5k, so that was the focus for the evening.  It was a good day for him too—1/7 in his age group and 7/199 overall.  He and the Middaugh family all stood on the podium after the 5k with proud parents in the audience.

 

So a great start to the XTerra season with a real nice trip to Las Vegas with the family.  The season is progressing nicely so far, with the San Diego Omegawave ITU in a few days, the B&L Encinitas Sprint Tri in May, and a few more XTerras in June. 

3rd Place Men 40-44

My son during his 5k

1st Place Boys 10-14

Oceanside Ironman 70.3 Race Report

At 3:30 am on race day, the alarm clock woke me after about 5 hours of sleep—not as much as I had hoped.  The day before was a very long day, which included an unplanned two hour hospital visit to take care of an infection (the doctors strongly recommended not to race), church, getting kids to practices, a visit to B&L Bikes in Solana Beach, and dinner preparation.  I finally started to prepare my gear for the race at 7:30 pm and finished at around 9:30—I had hoped to already be sleeping by then.

 

Race morning I ate two packages of oatmeal, one English muffin, and drank some coffee.  I found a great parking spot near the transition area, got my run gear set up in T2, walked the bike to run transition route a few times, then hopped on my bike to T1 and the race start about a mile away.

 

After setting up my bike in T1, I had about two hours to burn until my wave start.  I found a nice quiet place near the beach and closed my eyes to image the race from start to finish.  I mentally rehearsed the entire race envisioning the swim, transition 1, bike route, transition 2, and the run route.  I try to only keep positive thinking here—I keep negative thoughts aside and only imagine how I’ll feel when I’m feeling strong and moving fast.  I don’t image cold water, cramps, flats, or other distractions.

 

My wave started an hour and five minutes after the pros, so I had plenty of time to get my gear prepared.  I was in wave 22, the second to last wave, which meant that there’d be a lot of folks on the course ahead of me.  We got into the chute and proceeded toward the swim start like cattle.  I noticed that the guy in front of me had a timing chip on his ankle.  I FORGOT TO PUT MY CHIP ON!  Can I make it back to my pack and back to the start on time?  Wave 18 just went into the water.  Go for it!  I ran back to the boxes where we put our numbered gear bags and quickly located my chip.  I got it on and ran back down toward the swim start alongside the transition area.  The bottoms of my feet were so sore from the rough road.  I made it back to my cow herd in the pink caps with plenty of time to spare.  Forgot to put my timing chip on…how stupid of me.

 

The swim went okay.  I remember thinking, “wow, we’re at the halfway turn; that went quick!”  At about halfway through the swim, I found a pink cap and followed him the rest of the way, getting a decent draft.  We were passing more and more folks from the previous waves as we got closer to the swim finish.  With about 200m left to swim, there was a mass of swimmers in caps of different colors—it was a bit crazy dodging all of the swimmers and impossible to continue drafting off racers in my same wave.  All of the different swim caps in the water resembled a bunch of jelly beans in a washing machine.  Out of the water, I ran through the long transition area, got my gear on and pulled my bike off the rack.  I turned on my Garmin in the transition area because I forgot to before I left for the swim—another mistake in preparation.

For the first few miles of the bike, I noted sore glutes, but that soreness passed.  The first 20 miles went well—I was moving pretty fast heading north, probably due to a light tailwind.  I had a smooth ride along Highway 5, down Christianitos Rd to Camp Pendleton’s northernmost gate, then on to the first of three hills on the Marine Corps base.  I’ve been training on hills each week, so I was actually looking forward to them.  I geared down and took it easy getting up the hills, trying to keep in mind that I had more miles on the bike and a 13 mile run ahead of me.  On the hills, I kept saying to myself, “Not too hard, not too hard” because my tendency is to push hard on the hills like when I’m in training.

 

I forced myself to eat gels and half a solid energy bar along the ride.  I didn’t need the food then, but my body would need it later during the run and needed time to digest it.  My run preparation started at about mile thirty on the bike with Enduralites and scheduled nutrition and hydration.

 

Oceanside 70.3 Bike Course Elevation Profile

After the last substantial hill at about mile 40, the ride was mostly flat or downhill until the finish.  There was a decent headwind riding south on the base, so I tried to stay as aerodynamic as possible. 

 

Once back in the town of Oceanside, I felt pretty good about the ride and was excited to get running.  I had a good transition into T2 and got on the run fairly quickly.  I put socks on because I wanted to prevent blisters that would hinder training for some upcoming races.  I’m glad I burned the 10 seconds to put those socks on.

 

The run course was incredibly narrow in some parts—I was shocked that the race organizers made it so narrow.  There was only enough room for two people in the lane, so passing was problematic.  Since I was in wave 22, there were lots of people squeezed into the 4 foot wide lane near the Oceanside pier, so it was crowded and a hassle to pass.

 

I broke the 13.1 mile run into four quarters and planned nutrition accordingly.  At the southern part of the course, I finished the first quarter of the run and the start of lap two I finished the second quarter.   I felt strong during the run and had no cramps or pains.  At the start of my second lap I had some good energy and picked up my pace.  After completing ¾ of the run, I still felt good and pushed harder until I had the Oceanside pier (location of the finish) in sight about 1.5 miles away.  I picked up my pace a little more and crossed the finish, noting 5:41 on the timer, which translated to 4:36 for my wave.  I beat my goal of 4:40!  I also felt real good after the race; I wasn’t sore and didn’t feel wiped out, so I was pretty happy with my level of fitness and my training preparation. 

Splits:

Swim: 0:29

Bike: 2:31
Run: 1:31

Age Group Placing: 5/388   Overall: 102/2470

 

 

 

The gear I used:

Bike: Kuota Kalibur, SRAM Force gruppo, Hed Jet 90 rear wheel, Hed Jet 60 front wheel, Profile Design CX3 carbon aero bars, ISM Adamo saddle, Lazer aero helmet, Sidi T-2 shoes

Run: Saucony Fastwitch

Nutrition: Hammer gels, Hammer Enduralites, Hammer bar, Hammer Heed

One Week Out

 

One week from tomorrow I’ll be racing in the Oceanside Ironman 70.3. Since my last blog post, I’ve had some quality workouts, a little swimcoaching, and some great nights of sleep. Not only is Oceanside a big race for me, it’s the start of schedule thatfinds me competing three times in four weeks. First, Oceanside on 30 March, then XTerra West in Las Vegas on 13 April,then the San Diego World ITU on 20 April.

 

This week concludes my hard training and tomorrow I’ll start to taper. I had a nice 72 mi hilly ride in NE San Diego County on Saturday, which I finished in the fastest time ever.  I’m riding a Specialized Venge now, which is an incredible bike.  When my wife deployed to Afghanistan in June, I went to B&L Bikes in Solana Beach and bought the bike.  When I deployed for a year back in 2007, she got the beagle.  Sunday was my day off because of family obligations.  Monday saw a 3 hour double brick.  Tuesday included tough 8x hill repeats on a 1.8mi hill. Wednesday 10mi trail run with lots of hills followed by a swim. Thursday 6x 10min tempo on the bike. Friday, a long swim followed by 2x 15min tempo run. 

Saturday Ride in NE San Diego County

 

Hill Repeats

So far, the biggest challenge is keeping my focus on the next race instead of the ones after that.  I suppose that’s why it’s important to choose your “A” races and anchor your training around those.  But it’s hard for me to put a race into the“B” or “C” category because I want to do well in all of them.  That being said, I think I’ll try to focus on XTerra this year, with the intention of competing in the Nationals in Ogden, UT and the Worlds in Maui.  So, back to B&L I’ll go to get a set of race wheels for my Specialized Epic MTB.  I’ve got well over 1,000 miles on my training wheels, so they’re a bit beat up.  It’ll be nice not having to change out racing/training tires between races.  It’ll be REAL nice riding on some carbon wheels.

 

As an age grouper, father of two kids and with my wife deployed for a year it has been a challenge to squeeze this triathlon stuff into an already busy schedule.  How I do that will be the topic of another blog post.  I don’t have time for that now—I have to swim, pick up the kids from school, get them to sports, then go for a run.

Desert Triathlon Race Report (3 Mar 2013)

The Desert Triathlon in La Quinta, CA may be my favorite race of the season.  It’s the first one, so I’m usually pretty excited to see where my winter training has left me.  It’s also a fast one—6 feet below sea level, flat as a table, wide roads (easy to pass) and wide turns (no need for brakes).  This year was especially exciting, as I suspended racing beginning last June due to a turf toe injury and my wife’s year-long overseas deployment.  I also retired from the Marine Corps after 20 years, so I was going through some pretty profound changes.  The day after my wife left for Afghanistan, we packed up in the RV and traveled throughout Arizona and California during the summer.  I missed racing quite a bit and felt like a slob not training regularly, but I think I needed the break—my banged-up big toe certainly did.

 

After some great base training from September through December, I started with a more regimented schedule beginning in early January.  With the wife gone and two young school-age kids that need to get to school and sports, getting a job outside the home was out of the question.  So I’ve managed to spend time wisely during school hours and practices and can get up to 6 hours of training any day of the week if I plan grocery shopping, laundry, etc... 

 

My fitness now is probably the best it has ever been—it’s great to be able to train without feeling washed-out from a long day of work and bounded by a work schedule.  I’m also the chief cook and prepare food that is tailored for my goals.  I prepare good, healthy meals because I have the time to do it.  Cooking takes time and energy—things you don’t necessarily have after a long drive home down Highway 5.  So I’ve lost 10 pounds since last year and am pretty lean now.  I could still drop a few pounds, which would probably put me in the single digit body fat %.  I get cranky when I’m hungry, so we’ll see how that goes over with the kids…

 

So my “rust buster” race quickly arrived on March 3^rd.  We took the RV to La Quinta and stayed right at the race site.  I had a good pre-ride on the course, probably doing more miles than ideal for pre-race, but I’ve got Oceanside 70.3 coming up and needed to focus on training for that more than preparing for the Desert Tri.  I ate normally the day before: pasta, some oranges, a few energy bars on my ride, plenty of water.  I set my alarms for 4:45 and turned in at about 9:00 while the kids watched a movie.

 

I awoke to the smell of my automatic coffee brewer at 4:45 ready to go.  Coffee and oatmeal for breakfast, as is the standard for me on race day.  I also ate a Honey Stinger one hour before the race and drank some Heed.  Pretty bland stuff.  I got set up in the transition area when it opened and got a sweet spot where I hung my bike and partially set up the transition area.  Then I walked back to the RV, woke the kids and jogged back to the transition area for final preparation.  During my warm-up jog, my stomach felt a little uneasy, which I attributed to nerves.  It was still uneasy as I got my wetsuit on, but not a pronounced uneasiness.  I figured that it would go away after the start.  It did.

 

The swim went okay.  It is my greatest weakness in triathlon, so I’ve put a lot of work into swim training and have improved a bit, but not to the point where I want to be in the swim.  I had already scheduled a coaching session the next day with Chris Huxley in Encinitas—a great guy and a great coach.  My wave was three and six minutes behind the two waves ahead, so there were a lot of floaters to dodge.  I tried somewhat successfully to follow a guy who was an effective icebreaker.  I couldn’t get on his feet effectively though, so I had to work pretty hard to keep up with him.  After 20 minutes in the water, I exited in 7^th place from my wave, which I didn’t know at the time. 

 

One thing about being a poor swimmer is that you become a great transitioner out of necessity.  I was happy with a smooth transition, quick mount on the bike, and smooth feet in the shoes process.  I got into the aero position, settled my gears, and was ready to crank it out.

 

I saw Keith Butsko, the eventual winner, start his second lap as I turned to start my first.  For the first 8-10 miles, I felt good and my speed was where I wanted it to be—25-27mph.  My goal was to exceed 25mph average, which I knew I could do considering my average was 24.9 last year.  At some point, maybe around mile 12, I was trying to figure if the wind changed direction, as I felt like I was battling a headwind after every turn and felt a little gassed.  My speedometer was 22-23 and I was putting in some pretty good effort.  My intestines started gurgling too.  My upset stomach came back…

 

I got back into the transition area with a smooth dismount and a quick slip on of my running shoes.  I picked up my Kinetik visor and quick Velcro fastening race belt and got them on as I ran through the transition area.  I got out on the run course quickly and took a sip of water at the first quarter mile.  My intestines were really getting progressively upset and I began considering stopping at a porta john.  Another runner, going at the same pace, said, “we just ran that last mile at 5:46” so I knew I had a decent pace.  But I had other things on my mind that began to consume me.  The same runner and I ran shoulder to shoulder for a while and he suggested that we work off each other.  I grunted “yeah”, but was more focused on finding a porta john.  Mile two passed and another water station that I blew off.  At that point, my focus of the day was finding a porta john—nothing else mattered!  The porta john beat the thoughts of toughing it for another 24 minutes.  I unzipped my sweet Kinetik tri suit from the back and pulled my arms out within seconds of locating a beautiful blue porta john.  I lost a good minute, but got back on the course and felt great.  I estimate that I was running about a 5:40 pace for the last four miles—my legs felt so good and my worries remained in the porta john.  I finished with a 5:57 pace for the 10k, even with the stop included.  I wish I could learn a lesson from my upset gut, but I can’t figure what got me.

 

I finished the race in 5^th place in my age group, about a minute from getting on the podium.  My kids met me at the finish line, snapped a photo, and then I was off to visit my porta john friend again.  I was sick and began to feel miserable.  I talked with Kieth Butsko, who I know from B&L in Solana Beach.  We chatted a bit about how we felt on the bike.  I remember telling him how I felt like I was riding against a headwind the entire way. 

 

I left the race site and walked with my daughter back to the RV so we could pack up and head home.  As I was lifting my bike to get it in the RV, I noticed that the front wheel stopped spinning.  That was my headwind!  The brake was slightly rubbing on the front wheel—something I didn’t check in the transition area.  I always make sure the brake release lever is down, but I failed to check for brake rub since my bike was mounted on the transition rack and the front wheel was on the ground.  That is a lesson that I learned and won’t repeat.  But that mistake made me pay handsomely.  My average speed was 1mph slower than last year, even though I am certain I am more fit now.  What a humbling sport.  

With that race behind, I’m focused on the Oceanside 70.3, XTerra West Championships, and ITU San Diego in the coming months.  Hopefully, they have some good porta johns there too.